Interviewer: Joseph Roberts, owner/senior editor of Common Ground Magazine based in Vancouver.

Date conducted: June 26, 2003 7:00 - 8:00 pm PST

	Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj

Duration: Approximately one hour in length.
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JR: What did you do before you took over the spiritual mantle of the Science of Spirituality? What were you doing in the world prior to this?

SRS: I was lucky to have been born into a saintly family. My grandfather, Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj, known as the father of the Human Unity Conference and my father, Sant Darshan Singh Ji Maharaj, were both great saints from India. As I grew up in that family, I was taught from the beginning that one needs to become a good human being. Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj would often say, ìIt is very difficult to become a true human being, but once we are a true human being, then it is not difficult to find God.î

As I was growing up, the atmosphere in the house was spiritual. I remember when I was very young, seeing my parents getting up early in the morning to meditate. An atmosphere like that has a tremendous effect on anyone. So from a young age, I could see their focus and it had an effect on me.

As a student I studied the best that I could. After high school, I went into an engineering college called the Indian Institute of Technology, in Madras, India. It was one of the premier engineering institutes of the time, and I completed a degree in electrical engineering.

The teachings in the Sant Mat tradition are teachings of positive mysticism, where the emphasis is to excel in all spheres of life, whether it is physical, mental, emotional or spiritual. Through the atmosphere in the house and the guidance that I received from my parents and my grandparents, I was encouraged to excel in all spheres.

When I finished my engineering studies and got a bachelorís degree in electrical engineering, it was actually Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj who encouraged me to go for graduate studies in the West. When I applied I got admission to many universities in America. As was very common in our family, we would ask guidance from the Master to see what to do. My father and I then went to Sant Kirpal Singh Ji with all the admission letters. He looked at them and he said, ìGo to Chicago.î

So, I came to Chicago in 1968 to pursue graduate studies at the Illinois Institute of Technology in Chicago where I completed my Masterís degree. Then, I spent about twenty years working in the electronics and communications area. All along, my emphasis was on my spiritual pursuits, to try to be the best person that I could be and have my focus on God, along with leading a proper and well-balanced life.

JR: A lot of the readers reading Common Ground come from the secular world and theyíd probably be interested in knowing some of the specifics about what kind of inventions you developed, so that they could have a reference point. Would you feel comfortable talking about that?

SRS: I worked in research and development in the electronics field. One of the projects involved developing equipment that helped to record and automate patient histories so that they would be available to the doctor. I worked on another project during the early 70ís developing automated systems for gas stations. This was pioneering work in automating to be able to check a credit card, get the numbers, check whether the card is good or bad and then release the pumps so that one could get the gas and a receipt. In another project, I worked on developing some of the computer aspects needed for electronic time, temperature and message signs. I was involved in designing the touch screen terminal. A lot of those applications are in the market today. I was very fortunate to work in many challenging environments for about 20 years before the spiritual mantle fell on my shoulders.

Joseph Roberts: To study meditation in the Sant Mat (lit. 'Path of the realised Saints') tradition, do people have to give up their own faith, be it Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam or any other belief to benefit from the process you teach?

Sant Rajinder Singh: No. The teachings of Sant Mat are universal. We are souls living in the human frame and the purpose of our existence is to experience our soul and find its' merger with God, irrespective of outer environment, whatever faith we may profess, whatever religions we believe in, how we look, how we dress, or how we speak. We are human beings but our true nature is at the level of the spirit. Therefore, our emphasis is on being able to experience our soul as conscious spirit. The Science of Spirituality meditation techniques do not negate our religious affiliations. They enable us to experience ourselves as spiritual beings and connect us to God.

JR: What does it mean to be spiritual?

SRS: To be truly spiritual means that first we develop an ethical base and inculcate virtues of truthfulness, non-violence, loving nature, compassion, humility, purity of life and being of service to others. To be spiritual we need to recognise who we are: that we are conscious soul, full of the love and light of God. This is what our meditation practices ultimately lead us to experience.

Generally, we are living at the level of our five senses--the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. These senses are dragging our attention--the outer expression of our soul--out into the physical world, and we become coloured by its' hues. The saints and mystics teach and exhort us to invert our attention within, because within ourselves is the treasure house of divinity. As we traverse within, we experience what is called the holy Word, which is referred to in many scriptures by many names. The Sikh Gurus called it Naam or Shabd, the Sufis call it Kalma, and others named this Light and Sound of God as the Music of the Silence. This divine current came from the Source, created all the worlds, and exists within us. When revealed by a true teacher, this current enables us to return to our Original Home. As we experience this divine nectar within ourselves, the recognition of who we truly are sets in. We then recognise that we are not the body, we are the soul. To be spiritual, then, is to be able to experience this, and that requires help from someone who has already completed the inner journey. Such a one may be called a Master or spiritual Guide.

JR: How does individuality, individual choice and personal freedom relate to oneís spiritual growth?

SRS: In this day and age, individual choice is important because ours is a diverse world. There are many paths and many waysÖ We carry out the best search that we can under our own capabilities and once we find a genuine way or a true guide that benefits us, then something within us clicks. Then, we know that we are where we should be. Our spirituality is a one-to-one relationship with God.

JR: What causes one to seek something greater? At some point in a personís life they think, ìThere must be more to life than this.î

SRS: As we pass through life we seek improvement. We want to improve financially, we strive to be physically healthy and we want emotional happiness. Most remain focused in those three arenas. Then we find ourselves in difficult life situations. Our physical being is not as well as weíd like, our emotional state is not as good as we want, or we undergo financial stresses. As we pass through life, we begin to realise that if we are focused totally in the activities of the world, we can never be completely happy and joyous.

It is generally in difficult situations that we start to ask ourselves if there is something greater. Many times itís from a calamity that one starts to think about spirituality. Many saints and mystics have said that even difficulties can be good for us. This is the basis of the principle ìsweet is thy will,î which implies that irrespective of whatever is happening, we realise that it is Godís will working for our betterment. When we focus our attention on something that is far greater and long-lasting, that will give us solace and peace.

JR: What is God?

SRS: God is the creative power, which brought all beings and life into creation. God is omnipresent, all-knowing and is always there, looking after our welfare, whether we recognise it or not. God is the power which is there to uplift us out of any state that we find ourselves in. Godís presence is everywhere. We are always connected with God, but unfortunately many times we donít recognise our connection; we donít recognise the hand of God. Itís just like having a benefactor who is always taking care of you. We might not know who or where our benefactor is, but those whose inner eyes are open can recognise God any place, anytime and in any climate.

JR: What happens after we die?

SRS: When we physically die thatís not the end of our existence, because our true existence is not the physical body. The physical body is made of matter. And so, when we physically die, the physical body goes back into matter and the soul, which resides in the body, leaves that body for good. Now, when the soul leaves the body, never to come back, we say this person has physically died. Based on our karma, or past actions, our soul then is faced with many options. Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and others believe in the transmigration of the soul, when it passes from one form to another in the grand wheel of life. Those, who, in their lifetime, have communed with the Lord, are the fortunate ones who merge back to God. Those souls who have not realised their true selves, are the ones who continue on the wheel of transmigration and receive another birth based on their karmas or deeds.

JR: According to your teachings, why are we here in the first place?

SRS: In the beginning God was all alone, nameless and formless, and wished to become many from One. There was a divine vibration, which has been called by many names from which myriad regions came into existence. The realised Saints and Mystics speak of five great spiritual regions of existence. As these regions were created, God sent down souls--parts of Himself--to inhabit them. In the beginning, this was a one-time visit, but then as our souls came down into the different planes, they got entangled in the amusements and the attractions of these regions. With time, the law of karma came into being, which is similar to one of the laws of physics, which says, ìFor every action, there is a reaction.î Our soul became entangled and is trying to free itself from this karmic web. We believe that the human birth is an opportunity to get out of the cycle of lives and deaths.

JR: If we are getting out of the cycle of life and death, what are we then getting into?

SRS: We then merge back into God--the fulfilment of our existence. Itís like a drop entering into the ocean to become the ocean, or a ray merging back into the sun, where it becomes a part of the sun. Once we are out of this cycle of birth and death, we then attain a state of love, joy and tranquillity forever.

JR: Can you explain the difference between what is true and not true, and how to tell the difference?

SRS: One needs to experience for oneself. When we read the writings of the great saints and mystics from the past ages, we can see that they all talked about experiencing God or Truth, by whatever name they gave. So, one needs to find a way. There are many paths out there! When we search, we should have a prayer to God to show us the right path. Eternal truth is always true and that truth is within ourselves. So long as we are focused on the outside we will be devoid of the truth; when we focus inside we can experience the truth.

If we sit with our eyes closed, if we can still the body and then the mind, and if we do experience something higher within ourselves -- letís say that we experience some spiritual lights or other vistas in meditation ñ that is not the result of someone on the outside shining a flashlight on our eyes! We are not talking about visualizations or hallucinations. We are talking about experiencing spirituality as it truly is. Then, the words of the saints and the mystics become a guideline as to what kind of experiences we could be having.

The spiritual experience of being conscious is very difficult to express because languages are made to talk about physical phenomena, but when you start to talk about a spiritual state of consciousness it is very difficult. For example, if someone would ask, ìTell me what the taste of chocolate is,î it would be difficult to explain. Is it sweeter than mango? Is it sweet like sugar or honey? Does it taste like "burfi" (an Indian fudge-like sweet)? What is the taste of chocolate? But if you taste the chocolate you will only then understand what its taste is. The same thing applies when experiencing our conscious self. We can read all about it, but unless we taste it, unless we experience it for ourselves, we will be unable to understand it. The key is in being able to have the experience. In this way we can discover whether or not we are on the right track.

In the Sant Mat tradition we teach what is called Surat Shabd Yoga. Surat means our attention, shabd means the Holy Word or the Naam or the Light and Sound of God, and yoga means yoking or union. So Surat Shabd Yoga means the union of our soul with the Holy Word. Through this technique, we are working with our sensory currents rather than our motor currents. In the human body we have two kinds of currents: one is called the motor current or prana, which keeps our physical being alive, and the other is called the sensory current.

The motor current deals with the functioning of the human body. For example, we have the breathing system, circulation of blood, growing of hair and nails, and so on. These systems are controlled by what are called chakras in the body. There are five chakras in the body: the guda chakra or the rectum centre, the indri chakra - the regeneration centre, the nabhi chakra or navel centre, the hridey chakra or heart centre, and then we have the kanth chakra which is close to the throat centre. Through these five centres the body is created, sustained and finally destroyed.

There are many yoga techniques, which focus on these centres in the body, but we in the Sant Mat tradition focus on the sixth chakra, which is known as the ajna chakra or the eye focus. It is also called the seat of the soul, the daswan dwar, the shiv netra, the single or the third eye. Its location is between and behind the two eyebrows. We let the motor currents work normally and instead focus on our sensory currents by collecting them and bringing them inside the eye centre. Then, from that point onward, we are able to uplift into the inner spiritual regions

JR: What is the difference between belief and experience?

SRS: There is a big difference between belief and faith through experience. Belief is something that we read about, or something our parents or friends have told us. Belief is something that we think will happen, whereas an experience is what really does happen. Experience solidifies our belief and then turns it into faith. This happens when we experience the truth for ourselves. Belief plus experience is faith, but belief itself could be blind if it is merely something that someone else has said.

JR: What is the difference between positive and negative mysticism?

SRS: Many believe that to find God they need to negate life, leaving their homes and going into the mountains or to the banks of the river to seek God.

We in the Sant Mat tradition believe in positive mysticism. We have been sent into the world to fulfil our responsibilities to our families, our societies, our countries and then to the world. While fulfilling these responsibilities, we should also spend time to find God, the essence of our being. Therefore, positive mysticism, rather than negating life, deals with being positive about life, excelling in the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual arenas--to become homogeneous human beings. God has sent us into this environment and it is here that we definitely can find God and reach our goal.

JR: Is it our duty or responsibility to look after the environment that we live in?

SRS: There are six billion of us living in the world today, therefore we mustn't abuse our resources and deplete them for the future generations. We need to be ecologically sensible and exercise great responsibility towards the environment. Iíll share with you an example out of the life of Sant Kirpal Singh Ji Maharaj (1894-1974) who initiated me into the spiritual science. At Sawan Ashram, Sant Kirpal Singh Ji had his house built around a large tree out of respect for that tree. In Manav Kendra (another centre built by Sant Kirpal Singh Ji in India for the benefit of humanity) and in Dera Dhun in the foothills of the Himalayas, he likewise spared large trees. We donít believe in bringing destruction to our environment.

Just as there is ecology in the world outside, so there is an ecology of the soul where we connect to our pure soul state and remove pollutants from our consciousness. We need to be balanced ecologically as we lead our lives in the world outside and the worlds within.

JR: I listened to the talk you gave on the Millennium Gathering at the United Nations. Since then weíve had some surprising events happen in the world. What is happening with world peace these days?

SRS: If we look back at history, I donít think there has been a single year where there hasnít been some kind of a confrontation going on in some part of the world. There will always be people with diverse views and backgrounds, and we hope and pray that people recognize the diverse nature of the world.

Even though weíve had some very difficult times in the last few years, there are many more people today who are spiritually inclined. I pray that through these difficult years there will be more recognition of the unity underlying the diverse nature of the world, and that there would be more of an understanding that true peace and calm comes from within.

JR: There are some religious individuals who believe that we all must adopt their one "true" religion and thatís the only way we are going to find God or find peace. Then there are others who have an "anything goes" approach to spirituality and religion. Is the way to peace through everyone coming into one true religion or is it through tolerance and honouring different religions and spiritual traditions?

SRS: Peace always prevails when we use tolerance and are accepting of the points of views of others. We need to realise that we all come from diverse backgrounds with different cultures and beliefs. There are many religions with millions of followers who follow their path to the best of their capabilities. If we focus on tolerance and forgiveness in a world of diversity, then we will be peaceful. It doesnít make sense to think of a world where everyone believes in just one thing. Externally, we are all different. The greatness of going within through meditation, however, is that when you rise above physical body-consciousness, you experience yourself as soul. Then, you realise that at that level you are one and the same and so the outer differences donít matter any more.

There was a genome project, finished a few years back, where scientists studied and mapped the genes of all human beings. They discovered that 99 percent of all human genes are one and the same, and that only one percent of the genes accounted for all the outer differences in our features like our skin colour, shape, size and other physical characteristics.

Interestingly, if we go within through meditation, then we can experience our unity and when we focus on the world outside then we can experience our diversity. When we go within, we become more tolerant to the diversity that we find on the outside because we realise that behind that diversity, everything and everyone is one and the same. Once that realisation sets in, we become accommodating. Then, peace can be attained.

JR: What would you say is the difference between knowing the truth and living it?

SRS: It is said that ìTruth is high, but higher still is true living.î We know that we should be truthful, non-violent, loving, compassionate and caring. We also know that we should perform selfless service, but are we like that? Only when these precepts become a part of our being--then we achieve true living. So there is a difference between truth, knowing truth and living the truth. Knowing the truth is very good, but we need to go beyond. Those who live the truth are the ones who become truly spiritual.

JR: You are coming to Vancouver and Edmonton on Labour Day weekend. What is the purpose of your Canadian tour?

SRS: My purpose is to first meet with our brothers and sisters in this part of the world, to focus on the spiritual aspect of our being, to speak of love, peace and unity and to ignite in our brothers and sisters a passion to know themselves and to know God.

I feel the very purpose of being alive is to achieve our spiritual goals. Many times, as we get caught up in the activities of the world, our focus of attention changes. I am hoping that by being in Vancouver that our attention will be focused on what truly is important, to take a good look at ourselves and evaluate where are we today and whether we are going in the right direction. Once we are able to assess where we are, we can then take steps to reach our goal.

JR: How does the mind work in relation to thought, action and emotions and do thoughts lead to feelings then actions or vice-versa?

SRS: The mind is the source of where all thoughts start. The purpose of the mind is to keep us engrossed in the world. So a thought starts first, then words and then actions. Feelings, too, are connected with thoughts and so thoughts are very potent.

The mind is always trying to keep us engrossed in the activities of the world so that we do not focus on our soul. Through thoughts, words and deeds, we are always accumulating more karma and the more karma we have accumulated the more entangled we become in this physical world. The key to a spiritual life is to get to a meditative state of no thoughts, which we call "neh karma," where no karma is created.

JR: Do you teach a method of meditation to help control or still oneís thoughts, and, what is meditation?

SRS: Our attention is the outer expression of the soul. Meditation is a means by which we take our attention from the world outside and focus it within, at the seat of the soul, which is located between and behind the eyebrows. This point is also called the third eye, or divya chaksu, but it is latent in most. If we look at our lives we find that we are living at the level of our senses. Through our senses of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch our attention is going out into the world. So meditation is a means by which we bring our attention within ourselves.

JR: What would you say is the role of humour in spirituality?

SRS: I think humour is very important because it makes a person feel good about things. Many of us tend to think of spirituality as being really dry, but when we look at the lives of the saints and mystics who have come in the past, we find much humour because they were really uplifted by life itself.

JR: There are many powerful emotions such as anger. Some say if you repress your anger you hurt yourself, while others say if you express your anger or even think badly of your fellow human beings then you have committed a sin. How does one handle powerful passions?

SRS: We can only handle powerful emotions and strong passions if we have equipoise ourselves. Let me relate a story from the life of Lord Buddha. It is said that Lord Buddha was sitting with many of his disciples and a young man came and starting abusing Lord Buddha and so the disciples wanted to get rid of him, but Buddha told them to sit down quietly. The young man continued ranting and raving about how difficult his life was and said this and that about Lord Buddha. When he was done, Lord Buddha calmly replied, ìThis gift that you bring to me I do not accept.î

We need to reach a state where we can take the anger of someone but not retaliate and that can only happen if we are calm, collected and in equipoise ourselves. When we connect to the divinity within, we find that we are connected with the source of all stability. Then we are in equipoise so that whenever emotions or passions come to us we are able to handle them with calm and peace.

JR: In closing what would you like to say to our readers?

SRS: We need to take a good look at where we stand today. Many times in life we get entangled in one activity or another and lose track of our way. It may be a project we are working on at work, it may be our home life, our business, or whatever we are doing. I would like to say to your readers that if they want to evaluate what is happening in their life then they could use a simple principle: whatever takes us closer to God is good, and whatever takes us further away from God is not good. And so, if our activities are taking us closer to God then we should do more of that and if our activities are taking us away, then we can change. The key is to get closer to God.

(Recommended reading: Empowering Your Soul Through Meditation, by Rajinder Singh. Available at Banyen Books)

For information about Sant Rajinder Singh's Vancouver / Edmonton Tour (August 29-September 1, 2003), contact Phil at 604.879.5881 or Linda at 604.985.5840. For Edmonton, contact Mel: 780.988.8011 North American website: www.sos.org Indian website: www.skrm.sos.org.