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By Joseph Roberts interviews Victor Chan
 The
man who invited the Dalai Lama to Vancouver tells us how they first met and what
it’s like to help organize the upcoming Balancing Educating the Mind With
Educating the Heart dialogues. The other five prominent leaders taking part in
the April forums are: Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Prof. Shirin Ebadi, as well as
former Czech president Vaclav Havel, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi and Prof.
Jo-ann Archibald.
Q: When and why did you begin working on this event?
A: I guess when I was thinking about the fact that UBC doesn’t have
a Tibetan studies program. So, I started talking to Pitman Potter, director of
the Institute of Asian Research. He’s one of the foremost authorities on
China, so he got quite interested in the idea of doing something about Tibet.
Two and a half years ago I was in Dharamsala asking about the idea of him coming
to Vancouver for a visit in order to inaugurate the Tibetan studies program. He
said that he would come for two days.
I know the Dalai Lama speaks of the education of the heart, seeing that in the
West people are very much focused on career and that there’s intense competition
to go to university.
He believes what is needed is for people to have a good heart, so I talked to
him about coming to Vancouver to talk about the education of the heart so we can
bring up the next generation in a more sensitive way.
He was quite interested in doing that, so the next step was finding people he
could have a dialogue with. As I’m co-author of the book with him I travelled
with him a fair amount. I also spent time with him in India where I got to know
people like Vaclav Havel, from the Czech Republic, as well as Desmond Tutu, who
are in particular, really close friends of the Dalai Lama.
As a matter of fact, Havel told me when he became president of Czechoslovakia
in 1990 he had three wishes. They were to meet the Dalai Lama and the pope as
soon as he could, and then to establish diplomatic relations with Israel. I think
within the first half year of his term the Dalai Lama went to meet with him and
they became very good friends. The Dalai Lama often goes to Prague to meet with
Havel and they have these meditation sessions together.
Desmond Tutu met him a number of times and they have a tremendous chemistry together.
I’ve seen him with many people and I’ve never seen this type of chemistry.
Tutu is now in his 70s, the Dalai Lama is 69 and it’s amazing to see these
two elderly men playing around like kids.
Another person the Dalai Lama had a rapport with was Reb Zalman-Schacter Shalomi.
A book actually came of that meeting called The Jew in the Lotus.
I thought it would be great to get all these people together, so that’s
what myself and Prof. Potter have been working towards.
Then to make a sixth is Jo-ann Archibald of the First Nations community. So we
have an amazing array of people from Africa, Asia, the Middle East, Europe and
First Nations Canadians. It’s quite a coming together.
Q: How close are you with the Dalai Lama? What have you been doing over
the last few years?
A: I met him in ë72 during the Holy Festival in Dharamsala. I travelled
through India and took a bus to Dharamsala. My friend and I were splashed by these
balloons of coloured water when we got off the bus, so I remember it very well.
From ë99 on I’ve been co-authoring a book with him likely to be The
Resplendent Heart in Intimate Journeys and Conversations.
Q: The theme for our April edition is what’s healthy for the planet
and you said that would be one of the themes to be discussed.
A: Yes. One of the principle philosophies of the Dalai Lama is that of interdependence.
This is not unique to him. It’s a theme most Buddhists would subscribe to.
It’s also a theme most people can intuitively understand in relation to
ecology. But, for the Dalai Lama the understanding is visceral as well as intellectual.
His meditation and practices are all based on the foundation of the interdependence
of all things and that if you look at the people and things around you and really
go deep down, you find what he calls emptiness. Things are empty of inherent existence.
That existence really springs from interdependence.
When the Dalai Lama looks at a single tree he sees it dissolve into a web of intricate
relations, because the existence of the tree changes from moment to moment. It’s
buffeted by the wind. Rain is coming down. The existence of the tree depends on
a myriad of things. It depends on the soil, the seed and so forth. So, there’s
a whole web of relations out there.
So, if you look closely at a tree you’ll see ultimately that there is no
such thing as a tree. If you break it down it becomes molecules and quarks and
eventually nothing.
For example, he will go and give a lecture and see this crowd in front of him
and he’ll tell me that now that his practice has deepened to such an extent
he sees them not as distinct entities. Their outline has become blurred. He can
actually see that they merge with things around them, so the idea of interdependence
is not an abstract concept. He can see and feel it.
It’s the same thing that some scientists have now discovered. There’s
a team who have worked with meditators. When the person reaches the state of transcendental
meditation he lets the experimenter know and they inject dye into his brain and
take a picture of it. They’ve found a certain area in the brain that’s
like a combination of a gyroscope and a measuring device, so every time you move
around in your space this area automatically calculates distance and angles and
so on. So, if you move to a chair this super-computer in your brain allows you
to home in to the chair and sit down without falling off.
But, when you’re in the intense state of meditation, for example, the super-computer
doesn’t get the data it needs. Somehow there’s something blocking
the data. Your physical limits, your skin for example, dissolve and you become
merged with things around you, which is exactly what the yogis and other practitioners
have been saying for centuries. When you’re at a certain stage of your practice
you’re at one with everything around you, and are actually interdependent
and deeply, physically connected to the things around you.
So, the interdependence of all beings is a key thing the Dalai Lama talks about.
It’s not an obvious concept. Even if people have an intellectual understanding
of it, it takes years of practice to acquire real insight about this.
Q: What would be the impression of a new baby? It looks as if the whole universe
is flowing through them?
A: They haven’t yet developed all the defence mechanisms that make them
aware of being individual entities.
Then there’s the interdependence of the mind and the body, which the Dalai
Lama has been talking about for decades now. He says peace of mind will affect
your whole body. He often points out that doctors have done tests on his heart
and they say it’s like a 20 year old heart. I ask him why he has such amazing
vitality and he says, "Well, Victor, you know I’m very lazy when it
comes to doing exercise." So he came to the conclusion that it’s due
to his tremendous peace of mind. Medical scientists are finally discovering that
low stress improves the immune system.
Q: That’s become a huge topic in psycho-immunology. Is there an appreciation
for science and the need to interact with science in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition?
A: Since 1987 he has been spearheading a dialogue with scientists. For example,
I was with him a year or two ago in Dharamsala and a team of eminent scientists
went to Dharamsala to talk to him. So, the Dalai Lama has this dialogue every
year with scientists called Mind and Life (www.mindandlife.org). He’s vitally
interested himself in cosmology and quantum physics and relativity. He sees a
lot of parallels in the most advanced quantum theories in superstring theory,
for example with some of the ideas proposed in Buddhism. He’s very interested
in examining the commonality between the two.
He’s also interested if physicists find things that would disprove something
in Buddhism. He thinks that given new information and data, Buddhist theory should
also change. He’s very interested in psychology as well.
Q: Are there any books on these?
A: The latest book that came out of these dialogues is by Prof. Daniel Goleman,
called Destructive Emotions. You’ll find his conversation with Prof. Richard
Davidson, Prof. Paul Eckman and Prof. Mark Greenberg on education. That’s
a very interesting book. (Goleman also wrote the best-selling book Emotional Intelligence)
Also, if you go to the website www.mindandlife.org you would find all the past
information on the dialogues.
Another reason the Dalai Lama wants to talk to the scientists is because he wants
to stimulate the Tibetan monks’ interest in science, as in the past they’ve
devoted their studies to inner science, the inner mind and how to control their
emotions, how to be a better person. Now the Dalai Lama thinks it’s time
they learn about the external world because it’s important for young monks
to know something about science so they can make a contribution to the understanding
of the mind through the scientific method.
Q: Is that recent?
A: That’s very recent. He’s gotten his own monks to attend these
conferences only in the last two or three years. One of his key lamas spearheads
this curriculum so more and more Tibetan monks in the monasteries in India will
take up science as part of their studies. In the book Destructive Emotions you’ll
see how the whole process is laid out. If you want to go deeper into the process
of how it actually works then read the book...and there’s a documentary
film.
Q: What would you like our readers to know about the Dalai Lama?
A: Well, it’s a bit of a clichÈ but after knowing him for so
long - he’s really different from you and I. Ever since he was a toddler
he was put into this system of exploring his inner mind. His whole education was
focused on the emotions and transforming the mind, to get rid of afflicted emotions
like anger and jealousy and to enhance emotions like compassion, empathy and kindness.
So, for over six decades his whole life has been geared to that. They have a systematic
knowledge that takes them step-by-step towards this goal. If you look at an Olympic
athlete, for example, they also work very intensively towards winning a gold medal
and the span of training time is measurable in a couple of decades. He has immersed
himself in this Olympic type of quest for over six decades and the end result
is that all his life’s work, everything he does and says, is geared to how
he can be of service. He’s not coming to Vancouver so he can get a whole
bunch of money to help his people in India. No, this is a policy. A lot of Buddhists
would like to come to his talk and offer him money. This is the usual practice
and he always says he won’t take the money. So he travels all this way to
give this talk and doesn’t take back a single penny.
The main reason he comes is because we’ve invited him and he thinks that
by coming here people would like to hear what he has to say. The only reason he
is coming here is to be of help. Altruism is such an amazing thing for him. Now,
after all these decades of practice, his whole being has the belief that other
people are more important than him. We can pay lip service to it, but to take
it to such a high degree is to me very exceptional.
Another big part of his work is to promote religious harmony. That’s why
he’s very happy to be coming to Vancouver because it will be his first chance
to get to know Shirin Ebadi, the first Muslim woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize.
This is a chance for him to do his part to promote religious harmony.
Q: As there probably isn’t a venue large enough to accommodate the
number of people who’d like to see him, what about scheduling some real
time on the internet so anyone in the world could participate.
A: My meeting before you was exactly about webcasting. We are trying to establish
some relationship with MSN to go on their homepage. When he was in New York and
Boston in September the webcaster hosted via the internet. So it was right on
the front page of the internet and you could click on the whole thing.
Q: Sometimes when you’re in the presence of a saint or a holy person
it reminds you to be your true self. I’m looking at the picture of you,
arm in arm with the Dalai Lama, and you look so happy.
A: Well, that’s not always the case. Very often when I’m talking
with him or traveling with him, there’s nervousness, especially if I’m
interviewing him. He’s very sharp and he doesn’t take too kindly to
stupid questions. I have to make sure I prepare sufficiently for interviewing
him. So, most of the time I feel this edge of nervousness.
Q: So,
a sense of deep respect and that you have to watch.
A: Yes, I’m cognizant of the fact that I’m in the presence of
someone who is really quite precious and who has actually achieved a very high
level of realization. He’s very accomplished inside.
Q: Most people have accomplished unrealization.
A: (laughs) So I do get nervous.
Then, of course, the other thing is that having spent so much time with him we
always talk about the importance of motivation. It doesn’t really matter
what you do. You can be doing things that are harmful to another person, but ultimately
it boils down to the motivation in creating any act. For example, someone you’re
talking to can be very sweet, pay a lot of attention to you and make you feel
good, but there may be some ulterior motivation behind it.
So, he’s very tough about these things. You know, the first couple of times
it doesn’t really sink in but then he keeps talking about it and eventually
it hits a chord intellectually. But, still, it doesn’t go into the body.
It’s a mind thing. But to have it actually incorporated inside your body
and your heart is another thing.
Details of the Dalai Lama's visit
on website www.dalailamavancouver.org
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